Own Your Time - Marisa Guthrie
What if growing your business didn’t mean selling your soul, manipulating your audience or burning yourself out in the process? In this episode of Own Your Time, I’m joined by Marissa Guthrie, anti-capitalist business coach, values-led entrepreneur and author of the upcoming book The Reluctant Capitalist - for one of the most honest conversations we’ve had on the podcast.
We talk about why hustle culture is failing small business owners, how capitalism quietly shapes our relationship with time, money and worth plus what it really looks like to build a business that feels good, not just one that looks good on paper.
If you’ve ever felt like the online business world doesn’t quite fit you…this episode might be the permission slip you didn’t know you needed.
In this episode we cover:
00:00 – Why hustle culture isn’t working anymore
02:00 – What “anti-capitalist business” actually means
05:30 – Scaling small as a radical (and sustainable) choice
09:00 – Why time is your most fragile business resource
12:30 – Buying back time vs chasing more money
17:00 – Ethical, fair & fearless pricing (without guilt)
22:30 – Why under-pricing is not generosity
27:00 – Building social justice into your business model
31:00 – Ethical marketing without shame, fear or urgency
37:30 – Re-imagining success beyond hustle & growth
42:00 – Where to start if you want to do business differently
48:30 – Final reflections on time, values & building a business that supports your life
Key takeaways from this conversation:
✔ You don’t need to burn out to be successful
✔ Pricing ethically starts with meeting your needs
✔ Time and energy are more valuable than endless growth
✔ Scaling small can be a powerful, intentional choice
✔ Ethical marketing is about resonance not pressure
✔ Your business should support your life, not swallow it whole
Read the transcript:
Please note - this podcast episode was transcribed by an AI tool, there may be some typos or errors.
00:00:06:09 - 00:00:46:21
Sarah
What if running your business didn't mean sacrificing your time, your health, or your weekends? Welcome to On Your Time. The podcast where we trade hustle culture for mindful, sustainable success. I'm Sarah Stewart, and around here we're all about getting more time for what really matters. If you've ever find yourself studying hustle culture, questioning whether you have to follow the seven figure and seven minutes blueprint, or wondering if there's a way to grow your business without manipulating your audience or burning out in the process, you are going to love this conversation.
00:00:46:23 - 00:01:22:15
Sarah
I'm joined by Marissa Guthrie, anti-capitalist business coach. Values led entrepreneur and upcoming author of The Reluctant Capitalist. With over 30 years experience supporting nonprofits, solopreneurs and social enterprises, she's seen exactly how our dominant business models glorify busywork and disconnection. And she's not here for it. This is a great conversation about reclaiming your time, tracing with integrity. Marketing without shame.
00:01:22:17 - 00:01:48:06
Sarah
And why scaling small is a radical act. We talk about what it means to build a business that feels good, not one that just looks good on paper. So if you felt like the online business world doesn't quite fit you, this episode might be the permission slip that you need. Let's get into it. Marissa, welcome. I am so thrilled to have you here.
00:01:48:08 - 00:01:53:01
Marissa
It's an absolute pleasure to be here, and I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Sarah. So thank you so much.
00:01:53:02 - 00:02:10:17
Sarah
Yeah. Me too. So I'm just going to get straight into that. So you you describe yourself as an anti capitalist coach. Can you explain for me and the listeners what that actually means to you and what that means? You know what that looks like in practice?
00:02:10:19 - 00:02:48:00
Marissa
Yes. And I say it with the caveat that that doesn't mean that, again, because there's quite a lot to unpack here. It doesn't mean that I'm anti making money. It doesn't mean that I'm adding to profit. It's because I have a sort of systemic. I see everything through the kind of systemic lens of background and philosophy. And I feel that we're at a stage with capitalism where we can see that it probably does more harm than good, or at least it creates more problems than it solves.
00:02:48:02 - 00:03:16:06
Marissa
So I, my approach is very much along. How do we navigate capitalism, particularly, as you know, small micro solopreneur businesses and look at not perpetuate perpetuating, systems that we don't agree with while at the same time we're building a new system. So that's what the anti bit means if you like in anti capitalism's.
00:03:16:08 - 00:03:26:04
Sarah
Yeah. Nice. And so you shared there that your your background is philosophy. Do you want to maybe just explain what your journey into where you are now.
00:03:26:06 - 00:03:52:14
Marissa
Oh yes. Well so I was always you know, I was one of those kids that everyone said, oh, she's really sensitive. She thinks too much about things. She's an overthinker. And, and then at the time that felt that didn't feel complimentary. So fast forward to, you know, finishing school and everything. And the only thing that I could really think of doing was, philosophy.
00:03:52:14 - 00:04:25:21
Marissa
Because I was, seeing everything. I think I've been in a perpetual existential crisis forever. Renee. So I wanted to try and make sense to the world. So it was either going to be apology or philosophy. So actually, I chose, philosophy. So I would say that that is the kind of it's very, sort of weird now over my 30 year arc as a professional to see that, that that's sort of the thing that's held steady all the way through my career.
00:04:25:23 - 00:04:45:24
Marissa
Always been very values driven. It's always been about the mission and the purpose and doing good work. And so I feel like the iteration I'm in now is the extension of of all of that and really just wanting to leave things better than when I found them, if you like.
00:04:46:01 - 00:05:15:02
Sarah
Yeah. Oh, I love that. And so there maybe like, unlike my story was very much I was from the start striving and I wanted to climb the ladder and it was always this do more and be more, have more kind of ethos. And I feel like for me there was that tipping point and it's changed. Whereas maybe it sounds like for your journey that that maybe wasn't the case and evolved was sort of been I against the hustle.
00:05:15:04 - 00:05:34:06
Marissa
For I mean, it's a, it's a I would say, I mean, there have been some tipping points. So but I would say they've been more, I'd get to one place and think, okay, right, this this is it. Now I'm off and running and then there'd be something else coming in. So I guess it was really interesting.
00:05:34:08 - 00:06:02:10
Marissa
Covid was a massive tipping point for me because at that point I'd been running my business for about 12 years. 13 years, I guess. Where I'd always gone sort of cut the business narrative, if you like. I always wanted to stay at the small end. That was always really important for me, because I really started my business as a response to I'm a small business.
00:06:02:10 - 00:06:22:04
Marissa
Actually, I didn't realize at the time I was a micro business, and I, I can't find anyone to support a business like my. All the support I can access seems to be for people that, you know, bigger businesses. So that didn't make any sense to me. So I always I and I used to run a membership called Doing Business Differently.
00:06:22:04 - 00:06:47:04
Marissa
It was always like there was something different about it. But the I think a major tipping point for me was Covid. I because I could see what was going on economically and how unequipped we were as an economy. And certainly I could I was supporting some businesses, but the vast majority had to check out of the work they were doing with me immediately because their their incomes just dropped off a cliff for one day.
00:06:47:04 - 00:07:19:22
Marissa
And then subsequently, so did mine. So I had to rebuild from that point, and I was determined that I wasn't going to do what I'd been doing before. But I think a major tipping point has been for me, the rise of populism and how I feel. I mean, again, I don't know how, you know, political and philosophical you want to get, but I feel we're in a a really harsh, extractive, phase of capitalism.
00:07:19:24 - 00:07:49:07
Marissa
And certainly the fact that we have more billionaires and we're getting our first trillionaires and there's more of that now than there were before Covid when so much of the world is struggling to make ends meet financially. For me, that was like, I've something else is going on here and I need to change what I'm doing. That was quickly followed by a chronic, health diagnosis, which came into my life a couple of years ago.
00:07:49:07 - 00:08:14:18
Marissa
So it was like a really extreme kind of burnout, if you like. And that really forced me to reevaluate, evaluate everything as well. So I would say that been tipping points along the way, but it's also I think I was always going to end up here, if you know what I mean. And so like it's almost like I'm now in the right place at the right time.
00:08:14:20 - 00:08:22:17
Marissa
And that's what really precipitated me writing my forthcoming book, The Reluctant Capitalist. So I hope that's not too long an answer.
00:08:22:23 - 00:08:47:11
Sarah
No, no, that's great. And we're going to talk a little bit about your book as well, which I want to hear more of. You you mentioned in your pitch that, time is your client's most fragile resource, and I would love to hear from your perspective how time shows up for your clients.
00:08:47:13 - 00:09:15:17
Marissa
I mean, it's everything, isn't it? You know, in your work, you must see that all the time. It's when I first sit down with a client and I will say to them, what is it? Because also, I think we've narrowed our definition of success as a society. So it has to mean one of, you know, a few things, which is lot of the time, you know, whatever, you know, maximize your profits.
00:09:15:17 - 00:09:52:10
Marissa
Just it's all about the bottom line, what most solopreneurs want. And I think this is probably true across the board, but it isn't spoken about is they actually want enough money to buy back their time because that time for themselves and their time particularly, and this is that this goes through, you know, for nearly everyone I speak to, whether they have kids or don't have kids, but they want to spend time with loved ones because when they get to the end of their life, they know that's the thing that they're going to regret more than anything.
00:09:52:10 - 00:10:21:16
Marissa
As well as, you know, being able to maybe go on holidays or take little breaks or but, you know, so many people will say to me, I just want time in my day to feel spacious. I just want to have that kind of, that feeling of peace. So the 99% of the know, I would say in 100% of all cases, that's what people are looking for.
00:10:21:18 - 00:10:46:07
Marissa
So I will often be saying to them, you know, how are you? We use the the expression spend our time, don't with it. We're always spending our time because it's finite, is so linked to the business model that we will end up creating. And because the other thing is the time is immense, but it also translate into energy what I how you know.
00:10:46:07 - 00:11:14:22
Marissa
So for example, yesterday someone was saying that they come alive about 5:00. Well, for me I'm done by about three. So that's about the interplay between time definitely being our most precious resource, but also thinking about how they energy that we have. And we are all so different. And this and this is why the 9 to 5 and that kind of rhythm and pattern works for so few people, because most people don't work in that way.
00:11:14:22 - 00:11:24:21
Marissa
So I'm always helping them to maximize that energy while being able to buy back the time, but still meet their financial needs.
00:11:24:23 - 00:11:49:07
Sarah
Yeah, it's also been shown and I don't I don't recall the the source for this. I'll need to look it up and see if I can find it, but it's been shown that if you spend your money on buying back time rather than buying stuff, you're happier. The happier people are the people that are spending their money to facilitate the fact that they have more time.
00:11:49:07 - 00:11:54:15
Sarah
Which makes sense to me. Anyway. So yeah, great.
00:11:54:17 - 00:12:17:21
Marissa
Great statistic. And and I would also go further to say that it's also this thing or this is, it's, it's related, but slightly in a roundabout way, because one of the notions of success, you know, that's out there is that we start our businesses and then the marker or the metric of success will be employing people to do stuff.
00:12:17:21 - 00:12:37:10
Marissa
So we've got the luxury to go off and, you know, do whatever. And one I would say that's true. And maybe small amounts for solopreneurs, it's really different because generally they love what they're doing. So it isn't that they want to give up. But you know, I was at an event the other day where people were talking about the misnomer of the exit strategy.
00:12:37:12 - 00:13:00:08
Marissa
They don't want to exit, but they just want to have the balance where they get to do some of their work. So resource doing it, bring them back to the, I've got the time to do so. That statistic really makes a lot of sense to me when you actually talk to solopreneurs in particular, about what success means to them being.
00:13:00:08 - 00:13:22:19
Sarah
Yeah, exactly. And I think, you know, a lot of the the people I speak with, you're right. They're so passionate about the thing that they're doing and they end up spending all their time on it and, and then get to a point where they maybe can afford the support so that they can take. But I find that it's harder to then go back from that.
00:13:22:19 - 00:13:48:03
Sarah
What is actually what I've been doing from the outset as being really intentional with my time, you know, and I think probably that's maybe like a little thing to consider if you're thinking about going into business is actually. Yeah. Rather than doing the push, push, push at the start, burning the candle at both ends to then think, okay, this magical day will happen when I can then take a step back.
00:13:48:05 - 00:13:53:02
Sarah
It's actually trying to plan that. And as you know, from the get go.
00:13:53:04 - 00:14:15:08
Marissa
Yeah, for sure. And also what I've noticed, which you may have noticed as well, is that people will often I mean, I have a lovely VA who does two hours a week for me, which is amazing because that has freed me up, but it's freed me up to do things that are definitely in my zone of genius, if you like.
00:14:15:10 - 00:14:34:02
Marissa
But but often what I've noticed is that people will bring someone in to soon and a desire to kind of offload stuff, but before they're ready and before that organized, they're not strategic about it at all. So it ends up just kind of being a bit of a mess and it doesn't quite work. So I, I agree with you.
00:14:34:02 - 00:14:44:02
Marissa
I think that, you know, the productivity piece and who that person is as an individual comes first. And then we look at the infrastructure we can build.
00:14:44:04 - 00:15:09:19
Sarah
Anyway, yeah. So true. And I think for me it's there. Yeah. Rather than bringing someone in to, to chaos, it's actually, you know, I'm all about procedures and process, like getting everything written down. You know, where can you, streamline things before then? Yeah. Bringing in the staff. So, yeah, very much on the same page with that.
00:15:09:21 - 00:15:11:04
Marissa
So definitely.
00:15:11:06 - 00:15:33:13
Sarah
With there was one other thing I was going to say about the energy when you were talking about the energy as well. So I'll get a lot of my clients to time track, at least for a week, so that I can sort of see what, what's happening, and then, you know, I'm a scientist at heart. And so I'm all about, like, the data and things.
00:15:33:13 - 00:15:57:12
Sarah
And so that I would be looking at lead, you know, we would then maybe lay it in and look at, putting some colors into the, into the data. So thinking about splitting it up by activity. But then I would get them to look at it from an energy perspective, like what you were saying and, and figuring out, okay, when is their energy most buoyant and when are they lacking?
00:15:57:12 - 00:16:06:12
Sarah
And, can we get that sort of data across a week and then use that information to, to change things?
00:16:06:14 - 00:16:33:15
Marissa
Yeah. Totally agree. And I, I mean, I'm not a scientist. And my brain doesn't work in that way, but I do love data, and I'm always getting my clients to think about the, the data, and I and it's really interesting because it makes me think that one of the big shifts in my business has been that I, you know, I'm definitely a morning person in that I do my best creative work.
00:16:33:18 - 00:16:58:06
Marissa
First thing sat down with the coffee, that's when I'm going to, you know, be able to get a newsletter out or content or, you know, work on my book or whatever it may be. And so what I don't do now is organize my day, which I used to do before was organize it. So then I'd be not using that productive time and I'd be sort of scheduling it in towards the end of the day when my brain is completely checked out.
00:16:58:06 - 00:17:13:08
Marissa
And actually it's better for me to do things like check emails or, you know, something that doesn't require so much. I thought, because I'm an introvert and I love to be left alone with my thoughts, but at the right time of the day. So I love this. This is a great conversation.
00:17:13:08 - 00:17:38:13
Sarah
So yeah, no, it's good. Yeah. Maybe if we shift gears, I'd love to hear your thoughts on ethical pricing. And before we hit, before we hit record, I was sharing with you that I'm going through the B Corp certification. So this is very much front of mind for me at the moment. But what does and I think the phrase you use is fair and fearless.
00:17:38:18 - 00:17:45:14
Sarah
Well, what does that look like for, a small micro business owner for sure.
00:17:45:14 - 00:18:06:13
Marissa
So. Okay, so let's work with the the fair part, first of all. So what I say, I work with people that would describe themselves as purpose led mission driven, heart led soul entrepreneurs and what they will often do, and I have done this myself as well, is, I think, right. I, I know how to help a lot of people.
00:18:06:15 - 00:18:26:21
Marissa
So I'm going to start my business and what I'm going to do is I'm going to price really low so that I can afford to, so that everyone can afford to work with me. And we start off in this way, and then we, you know, it doesn't take long for things to get a bit unstuck will fall off, because before we know it, we're still and we're starting to get burnt out.
00:18:26:22 - 00:18:59:10
Marissa
And, there's no economist. So the way with, you know, we're we're stuck in the time for money is what I help business owners think about what's fair. But by positioning themselves, first of all, and let me say, not from a place of ruthless individualism, which would be counter to my anti-capitalist narrative, but from a place of being resourced and understanding that we can only do our best work for our clients when we are resourced.
00:18:59:10 - 00:19:22:12
Marissa
So what happens is those business owners, extend the social justice that they want to say, not businesses to everybody else, but they still get to do it to themselves. So what they do is by doing that, they've internalized this capitalist narrative is we've got to extract from someone I don't want to extract from people externally. So I'm going to extract for myself.
00:19:22:14 - 00:19:40:17
Marissa
And what I will often say in my office is people say, oh, my virtual office, as it were. People saying, I'm fully booked, but I'm not meeting my own financial needs, and I don't think I'm going to be able to continue, which is doing a massive disservice to the people that they're currently working with as well as anyone in the future.
00:19:40:17 - 00:20:09:02
Marissa
And I've seen so many businesses do that, leave their businesses and then go to employment. So what happens is we get this brain drain leaving entrepreneurship and going into the employed sector, usually where they're not as fulfilled and happy in that. So the fair part has to be fair to others. So we have a pricing eco system which which might be an entry level, mid level, high level.
00:20:09:02 - 00:20:31:00
Marissa
But we we are very aware that not everyone is going to be able to work with us and we can't serve everyone. And so we built I will help business owners build that into their model. So that's the first part. The fearless part is we are all terrified about what people think about us. Even if we say we're not we.
00:20:31:04 - 00:21:06:13
Marissa
We are somewhere in our survival. You know, our primitive brain. We want to be a part of the tribe. And so what I have seen, I have a course that people can buy called Ethical Money Mastery, which is an extension of my, my, my free webinar about pricing. What I have seen is that people will derail themselves and their businesses around pricing because it it doesn't sit with their nervous system because they are worried about the rejection and the way that they might be perceived.
00:21:06:15 - 00:21:26:02
Marissa
So again, a lot of the work that I'm doing is helping people unpick that. I had someone say to me the other day, you know, it feels so uncomfortable to base my pricing on my needs. I mean, let's just think about that statement. You know, this person is struggling to pay their bills and that affects your family, like so many things.
00:21:26:02 - 00:21:49:09
Marissa
And I've really, you know, recognizing and, validate the feeling of fear that that brings out. But so what I help business owners to do is to, you know, we go through a very clear process of, okay, let's look at your financial reality. Let's look at what you're currently pricing. Let's look at the gap because there always is one.
00:21:49:11 - 00:22:16:00
Marissa
And then let's pace you and your nervous system to get you to the place where you're actually pricing to meet your financial needs and the things that you say that you want. So buying back your time. And so you've got time to spend with your, you know, all of those kinds of things. So the fearless part is about the fearlessness required to be a sovereign individual in your own pricing.
00:22:16:02 - 00:22:36:19
Marissa
Because what we often do with our pricing is we'll go we'll look at it in an external way. So I'm a business coach. I set myself up, I don't know how to price myself. So I look at the ten other business coaches out there. Some of them charge 50 pounds an hour, others charge 500 pounds an hour. I don't know what to do, so I'll sort of go somewhere in the middle towards the lower end.
00:22:36:21 - 00:22:56:17
Marissa
We don't know what the personal situation of any of those coaches are. We don't know if the one that's charging 500 is making any money. We don't know that the one that's charging 50 doesn't have a trust fund or a wealthy partner to support them. So what we end up doing is we outsource the pricing to, you know, we do this.
00:22:56:19 - 00:23:28:15
Marissa
It's like we do a night and hive mind around pricing, not knowing the context of the other. Interesting. So the fearless part is about being able to say my prices are my prices without apology and without then because this is the deeper work. But it's then without sabotaging by over delivering. So if an hour costs 200 pounds, you give two hours, that's 100 pounds.
00:23:28:15 - 00:23:35:21
Marissa
Yeah, yeah. So yeah. So that's just, that's just where the fear and the fearless come in, if that makes sense.
00:23:35:23 - 00:23:56:17
Sarah
Yeah. It does. So interesting. Yeah. And I think yeah pricing is huge. And it's probably is one of the first things that people will sort of I guess start to encounter when they're going out in business as well. Yeah. It's okay. Yeah.
00:23:56:19 - 00:23:58:18
Marissa
But it doesn't have to be.
00:23:58:20 - 00:24:23:00
Sarah
And, and how I guess in terms of then like that balance and, you know, a few and you touched on like it's value led founders, you know, and but like honoring that but then also being the business that pays well like the yeah I can see why that's a huge struggle.
00:24:23:02 - 00:24:48:19
Marissa
It's it's yeah. And that's the thing that we have to navigate. So it's for me the I can only speak to my business model which has been hard one like I have done it all which ways. But here is what I now know. Being on the other side of having price too low, always feeling very uncomfortable, not wanting to be, you know, a high.
00:24:48:19 - 00:25:19:08
Marissa
I have a high ticket offering. What I now know is, which I didn't know before, and actually someone I interviewed for the book who's in the States, she said something really similar is that the number of people and the way that I can help people now that I have a high ticket and and I have all the, you know, and I have like this ecosystem of offerings, but I can help more people now than when I was offering my coaching.
00:25:19:08 - 00:25:49:18
Marissa
So 50 pounds an hour to whoever wanted it. And that is because I've accepted a I'm not for everybody and that's up to you. And be I can't necessarily work with everyone all of the time, but the ways that it plays out in my business now is for example, we were talking this, before we went, before we were recording that I launched, a course earlier this year.
00:25:49:18 - 00:26:11:17
Marissa
This is the Ethical Money Mastery course. And I spoke to people that said that they wanted it, but they didn't have any money at all. And I had worked out how how many people do I need to sell this to in order for this to work? And then I could give away a tranche for free, which I was so happy to do.
00:26:11:19 - 00:26:35:15
Marissa
So for me, that is a way that I built social justice into my business model. The other thing that I can now do, because I am earning enough to support myself and my family, is I can now offer some work pro-bono. So there's a particular client that I work with are single parent. I find that really difficult for them to funds, but I now offered a yes coaching for free.
00:26:35:17 - 00:26:54:05
Marissa
I would not have been able to do that before when I was really struggling. So one of them, this, this person I was telling about, Meghan Makinson, who I've interviewed for the book, she said, you know, if we want to help people, we have to accept that we need to charge high. And what do we do about sitting with the privilege of that?
00:26:54:05 - 00:27:16:14
Marissa
We just have to sit and feel uncomfortable with it. But at the same time, understanding that, you know, we so wanted so I have now do is I can support a local charity because I have the time and the space in my schedule because I'm not servicing clients, you know, five days a week, eight hours a day to be able to to support that charity.
00:27:16:14 - 00:27:46:17
Marissa
I can also fund projects and charities and social enterprises that I believe in because I've got that. So it for me it's about understanding. It's a wider ecosystem. And that's why the fearless part of the pricing has to be something that you feel so certain and sure about. If the detractors come, which I have to say, probably when your boundaries are so good they don't come, but you see them coming in, that's always the fear.
00:27:46:17 - 00:27:51:19
Marissa
So it's it's complex and multi-layered, but I hope that sort of begins to yeah.
00:27:51:19 - 00:28:22:12
Sarah
I know it does. And the ecosystem part is really important. You know, I, I'm similar in that I've got lower ticket things and higher ticket offers and I've played break with pricing and sort of going with a bit of at the hive mind that he talks about, but also that sort of gut feel as well, like, you know, and I and I, I've probably landed somewhere now where I feel good about all of my pricing ideas.
00:28:22:14 - 00:28:56:08
Sarah
And, and yeah, like you the that, that ability then to be able to carve out time like even this morning, Wednesday is my day where I volunteer at my local hospice. So this morning I've been at the the hospice already for a few hours. Then my done my volunteering. But, and I yeah. Do that proportion of pro bono work as well and do scholarships for some of my courses and so and that feels so nice to be able to do that.
00:28:56:10 - 00:29:16:12
Marissa
It feels so good. But it has to come if we do that. And again, this is what I see is that solopreneurs or, you know, micro-businesses they try to put those things in too soon because they feel a level of guilt. I call it survivor's guilt. That around that. And then they become unstuck. So then they end up spreading themselves so thin.
00:29:16:12 - 00:29:43:15
Marissa
They're not doing great work because they're so, you know, they're running on empty and they're not meeting their needs. So when we're resourced, we can actually do stuff, you know, and we can actually help people. But it you know, it requires a lot of deconditioning and unlearning, I would say, because in capitalism, just going back to that, you know, binary, you can either do good or you can make money that you can't do both.
00:29:43:17 - 00:29:56:15
Marissa
And so this is what my all of my work is predicated on. There is a third way. And this is what many, me and many other people, including yourself, are now doing. And it feels much more exciting.
00:29:56:17 - 00:30:34:17
Sarah
Yeah, yeah. Oh, I love it. Yeah. When we think then about the so so going along with the sales and pricing, we've also got the marketing side of things, which I know your you're passionate about to what when we think about marketing like I, I'm trying to be, you know, considered an ethical and so on when it comes to marketing and, and you sort of hear all these shoulds that we should be doing, and it's all this like, you know, the, the urgency and no, this is, you know, going to be going away and so on and so forth.
00:30:34:22 - 00:30:40:08
Sarah
Where, where like, how do we shift away from all of that stuff?
00:30:40:10 - 00:30:43:14
Marissa
Oh, you I mean, again, how long have we got Sarah?
00:30:43:14 - 00:30:45:04
Sarah
But,
00:30:45:06 - 00:31:26:02
Marissa
It's, it's this is such a powerful conversation I'm having in multiple ways with many different, people, individuals, organizations at the moment. For me, it comes down to something quite simple, but it's actually quite complex. So we've been sold as it were, an idea that marketing relies on pressing the pain point, pressing the shame, and then you being the one with the answer and, you know, the solving the problem and you just show how and then that's going to lead to sales.
00:31:26:04 - 00:31:52:19
Marissa
So I would say that kind of marketing, I'm going to be honest, I think that is dead in the water. Now, it doesn't mean that people aren't still marketing in those ways because they definitely are. But if we want to be ethical throughout our businesses and actually even on my course, which is about ethical money, we can't, money ethically if we're going to market and sell unethically.
00:31:52:21 - 00:32:15:08
Marissa
So again, our whole business model and ecosystem has to be set up along those lines. And, you know, and, in the course of this conversation, I mean, we could spend, you know, at least a whole hour, if not more, talking about what ethical marketing means. But for me, it's about instead of pressing pain and shame, we we want to neutralize it.
00:32:15:10 - 00:32:42:09
Marissa
We want to dissolve it. We want to be relatable and we want to resonate, and we want people to resonate with us rather than, this kind of power over. So there's this thing around people being marketed to as if they're kind of broken. So their humanity and their agency and their sovereignty as individuals is kind of disregarded.
00:32:42:11 - 00:33:03:17
Marissa
And when you see, you can only you'll know what I mean when you're on the receiving end of it, like we've all been marketed to in that way, we may even have bought because we've been marketed to in that way. I know that I have definitely it. Fear is the other one pressing people's, you know, activating them and pressing their fear and activating their nervous systems.
00:33:03:17 - 00:33:32:04
Marissa
So you were talking about the urgency and FOMO and things like that. I've definitely bought things based on on that in my life. And it feels it feels so horrible and it nearly always is the thing that we actually need. So a lot of the work that I'm doing with my clients right now is to look at all of the kind of, structures and platforms that are out there.
00:33:32:06 - 00:34:12:12
Marissa
Another one at the moment is lots and lots of conversations around social media, because people are really feeling like, oh, do we want to be supporting platforms where we can see the owners of those platforms doing pretty bad things and saying things that don't agree with and things like that? And if you look at the vast majority, like we, we, you know, we both know what platforms, we're starting to if you look at how things are done, I mean, it just it's just so exploitative and manipulative and all of the things that we don't want to be in our lives.
00:34:12:12 - 00:34:48:24
Marissa
So why would we try and perpetuate that in our businesses? So I, I'm helping people. I guess what I do is I work on the resonance messaging. What are you going to say that's going to resonate with your people? And again, when you when you land on that and you sit and you can feel emotion, you can sell your humanity being considered and you are an individual and a sovereign being within that that feels so different to that power.
00:34:49:01 - 00:35:19:14
Marissa
So dynamic, which it, it's if it isn't dead already, it's brandy really dying a death because people just don't want to be marketed. And yeah, it requires some thought and, quite a lot of undoing in order to because sometimes I've even found myself going, hang on, that that sounds oh, hang on, that bit extractive sounding or that could be perceived as being a bit manipulative.
00:35:19:14 - 00:35:33:23
Marissa
So it's but you have to be incredibly intentional and really, really aware. But it, it is totally possible and it, it pays results. It yields results as well. So yeah, it's it's a big old.
00:35:34:00 - 00:35:59:02
Sarah
It's interesting because I think it was a like it's tricky. Like I mean I'm even thinking about mine. I got a lot of work probably to do with from the marketing sense. I think in terms of my business, because I, I do lead with the pain points to and use that to identify so that people can identify as being the right person for my services.
00:35:59:06 - 00:36:11:17
Sarah
And it's and it is the pain points that I use, you know, are you feeling overwhelmed? Do you feel like you never have enough time in the day? Can the thing. So it's yeah, it's interesting.
00:36:11:19 - 00:36:35:10
Marissa
But is it, is it is that leading with the pain? I mean, again, there's there's many ways of doing this because I would say again, it's about something for me around the overall feel of how something feels like. Obviously you're a very warm, sensitive, human being that sees the humanity in other people. So again, I think that it's about the balance as well.
00:36:35:10 - 00:37:14:22
Marissa
And it's about and also what we don't want to do is police ourselves and beat up on ourselves because this is all this is all very it's pretty, you know, it's sophisticated, it's nuanced. It's it's it's tricky. So we mustn't we must be careful again not to police ourselves. We know we're doing really great work, but where I've had had to sort of, so sometimes people have come to me and I can see that there is a disconnect between who they are as an individual and the amazing work that they do.
00:37:14:22 - 00:37:33:01
Marissa
And then even something like the images that they use on their website or so. Again, it's about the balance and let's just be it. For me, it's a continual question that we need to be asking rather than something that we just need to solve because it just takes time. Yeah.
00:37:33:03 - 00:37:35:13
Sarah
That makes me feel a bit better.
00:37:35:15 - 00:37:38:17
Speaker 3
00:37:38:19 - 00:38:10:08
Sarah
Yes. But yeah, I mean, I sort of feel like business is it's just a continual experiment and like, you know, and I'm trying to, you know, I, I said at this before we hit record about, I'm going to be doing a launch in December of my law ticket offer, and then I'm trying to come at, at it this time with a little bit more playfulness and, you know, and just sort of taking the pressure off and, you know, I, I'm here to enjoy my time.
00:38:10:08 - 00:38:16:18
Sarah
And so I want to make, you know, yeah, there's like so much to it. Yeah.
00:38:16:20 - 00:38:21:20
Marissa
It's so complex. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:38:21:22 - 00:38:28:00
Sarah
Tell me about your book. I would love to hear about your the book that you've written.
00:38:28:02 - 00:39:04:12
Marissa
Yeah. So, it's called The Reluctant Capitalist. We haven't got a subtitle or a strapline yet. Because what I'd written, the publisher was like, no, no, no, that's not going to work. But, so basically, to summarize, it's for solopreneurs, freelancers, micro businesses are usually just one person enterprises. And it's about how we navigate a system that we feel, we know is problematic, but we are still all capitalist because we're in that system and we all benefit from it as well.
00:39:04:14 - 00:39:31:21
Marissa
So how do we navigate that and feel the ambivalence of that whilst we are questioning those systems and also then coming up with new systems and new ways of relating to each other? So, so for my sins, I'm not an academic, but I've written a short history of Capitalism, a Short History of the business, and then really looked at translating all of that into how that shows up in our bodies.
00:39:31:23 - 00:40:02:19
Marissa
So the thoughts that we have and, and, and how, how it affects how we feel about overwhelm and the burnout that we're seeing all the time. So I'm trying to dispel a lot of its. And then, the, the second part of the book is introducing my own framework, which is the thrive business ecosystem, which is literally that it's about creating a business that's predicated and built on an ecosystem that allows you and others to thrive.
00:40:02:19 - 00:40:27:13
Marissa
Because our thriving is not individual. It is collective. That's my philosophy, anyway. And then I end the book by talking about potential new systems. So for me, yeah, it's a lot, feels like a very audacious thing to do. I've never written a book before. And then as my publisher said, well, no one has until they've written a book.
00:40:27:13 - 00:40:45:15
Marissa
So it's made me feel a little bit better. But, you know, I'm having to to deal with quite a lot of imposter syndrome and, and things like that. But, you know, I'm growing into it, so I'm growing into that space and I'm sort of now starting to call myself a writer, which feels amazing.
00:40:45:20 - 00:40:55:16
Sarah
Yeah. I love that so much. Do you know, do you have an idea of the timeline of, like, when it might be available to you? So just.
00:40:55:21 - 00:41:20:09
Marissa
Yeah, we're looking at autumn 2026. Okay. Yeah, but but what's interesting is between now and that, we're like November 2025 between now and then, I've pretty much got to write the book and and then the it's, it's like a crazy it's I don't understand the world of publishing until but I'm beginning to and it's like this crazy protracted timeline.
00:41:20:11 - 00:41:29:01
Marissa
So it feels. Yeah, it's nearly a year, as it were, to get it to that place, but there's going to be an awful lot going on behind the scenes.
00:41:29:01 - 00:41:44:17
Sarah
So yeah, I have no idea. Oh, I love it. Well, I will definitely be buying it. Sounds like it's so, Yeah, a must read. And you can get back in touch with me when it's available and I can share on and stuff.
00:41:44:19 - 00:41:53:15
Marissa
And I might be doing a little, book tour as well, so you never know. We're at opposite ends of the of the UK, but you never know. I might make it up there. Yeah.
00:41:53:15 - 00:42:18:06
Sarah
Oh, nice. And so for anyone listening to to the episode today and they may be thinking, okay, you know, love everything that we're, we're talking about and they're like, okay, I would like to do business differently as well. Where where would you suggest that they start? Like what do you what do you think is that first little step that they could be taking.
00:42:18:08 - 00:42:44:16
Marissa
Yeah. Thank you so much. So, the best thing to do is to go to my website, which is Marissa Guthrie coaching. There you will find I've got, free resources for people to download, including that, that masterclass on, pricing and ethical pricing. And, you can also apply for a, 1 to 1 coaching partnership with me, which starts with a free 60 minute.
00:42:44:16 - 00:43:02:10
Marissa
Cool. I also write and my community is on, Substack. I said, you go to Substack and either put in The Reluctant Capitalist, which is what I've known as on Substack or Marissa Guthrie, but there's links to that on my website as well. So that's.
00:43:02:12 - 00:43:25:01
Sarah
Amazing. Amazing. And before we wrap, I wanted to do a quick time crunch with you. It's my it's my sort of quickfire lightning round. So my first question, Larissa, is, what is a business tool or a system that you swear by?
00:43:25:03 - 00:43:31:24
Marissa
All? What do I swear by? I mean, I do color code, my calendar.
00:43:32:01 - 00:43:32:15
Sarah
Yeah, yeah.
00:43:32:21 - 00:44:07:23
Marissa
Which I, which I find really helpful. I, I have to say that I've been using Otter AI for my meetings, particularly the strategic deep dives I do with clients, and that has been a game changer. That is fantastic in summarizing the conversation, but also pulling out the actions and the priorities. So probably that one I'm going to kick myself off towards because I'm going to go, I should have mentioned blah, but that's the one I would say is saves me time.
00:44:08:00 - 00:44:17:15
Sarah
Yeah. Nice. Yeah. What is one thing that you wish every solopreneur knew about time.
00:44:17:17 - 00:44:47:22
Marissa
That if you aren't, if it isn't you directly working with people or actually an activity that brings money into your business, ask yourself why you're doing it. There's so many shirts that we have as business owners, I should go to this or I should do that, or I, you know, should do the other, or I should be posting on social media, you know, umpteen times a day, do the day, you know, be like you be a scientist, follow the data.
00:44:47:24 - 00:44:54:20
Marissa
If that activity isn't bringing money into your business, reevaluate and ask yourself why you're doing it.
00:44:54:22 - 00:45:00:21
Sarah
That's a great prompt for people to go away and work on, actually. I mean, it's pretty.
00:45:00:21 - 00:45:22:18
Marissa
I'm not very I'm a very, I'm a very I'm a coach that enjoys walking. So I don't have definite like, I don't I'm not a consultant, so I'm not so person says, don't do this and do this. But for me that it's, you know, if it's not bringing your money, why why are we doing it? Yeah.
00:45:22:20 - 00:45:31:12
Sarah
Yeah, that's a good one. And then what is something that is scheduled in your calendar that might surprise people?
00:45:31:14 - 00:45:36:12
Marissa
So what might surprise people is that I do ballet.
00:45:36:14 - 00:45:39:17
Sarah
Oh, amazing. Yes, I love that.
00:45:39:19 - 00:46:07:20
Marissa
Very good. But I've been doing it for, quite a long time that you'd think I should be better than I am. But for me, it's a massive opportunity to de-stress and move my body with other people. There's something about the commute, the communality, of that that makes it just a fantastic. A dance is brilliant. It's so good for our minds and our bodies, and doing it with other people is just a lot of fun.
00:46:07:20 - 00:46:18:16
Sarah
So I love that so much. Yeah. Is there anything else, Melissa, that you would like to share with the listeners?
00:46:18:18 - 00:46:44:07
Marissa
I think what I want to share is all the feeling that all of this time solopreneurs have looked to the big guns, the tech bros, the corporate world about, okay, that's the that's the way to be, quote unquote successful. Whatever that means. And I think that time is coming to an end. And I think we're moving into that.
00:46:44:10 - 00:47:06:10
Marissa
The rise of the reluctant capitalist, the rise of the solopreneur. We already know statistically that there are many more of those kinds of business. And I think that, that paradigm is going to flip so that those businesses and companies, they're going to look to us for the way that things should be done, because we've got much more power than we think we do.
00:47:06:12 - 00:47:22:21
Marissa
And I like to see that more. So I just want all those solopreneurs, but, you know, you can't do it on your own. And that's another myth that we're sold to in order to be successful, we have to do it on our own. We need the partnership with people like you, people like me, whoever else is in our, you know, our network.
00:47:22:23 - 00:47:25:09
Marissa
We we we all need each other.
00:47:25:11 - 00:47:36:13
Sarah
Yeah, yeah, I love that. It reminds me of, code that someone had shared recently, about the rising tide that lifts all ships.
00:47:36:13 - 00:48:03:02
Marissa
Exactly. Right. Yeah, yeah, we've we've been sold the opposite for a very long time, and we've weaponized our competence because we feel like we can't ask for help because asking for help is a sign of weakness. Actually, we all need each other. We're all. We're all interlinked and connected. So yeah, that's what I, I think along with like those solopreneurs to really hear and internalize.
00:48:03:04 - 00:48:22:01
Sarah
Yeah. Oh, I love that one nice way to wrap that the conversation. Thank you so, so much for yourself for joining me. I'll make sure that in the show notes, all the links to your, resources and website and all of that sort of thing are included. And. Yeah, thank thanks again.
00:48:22:03 - 00:48:31:04
Marissa
Amazing. Listen, I could talk to you for hours. Thank you so much. I'm really, really grateful for the opportunity. So I hope that we will definitely speak again.
00:48:31:06 - 00:48:57:24
Sarah
Okay. Bye. Tonight. Thank you for listening to all your time. My lessons take on reclaiming time and building your business with care and navigating capitalism without selling your soul. It's the kind of wisdom that we are here for. It's something she has said has resonated. Please do go and check out a free masterclass on ethical, fair and fearless pricing.
00:48:58:05 - 00:49:18:14
Sarah
I'll make sure all the links are in the show notes and definitely sign up for her Substack as well. Her Books of Reluctant Capitalist is on the way. And I do think it's going to be a really impactful read for so many small business owners. So I'll be back in touch to let you know when that is available.
00:49:18:16 - 00:49:44:10
Sarah
And thank you for spending your time with me. I hope this episode gave you an opportunity to reimagine what's possible and remind you that your business gets to support your life, not swallow it up. And I would love for you to share this with a friend, your business bestie. Or come and find me on Instagram. I'd love to hear what landed most for you.
00:49:44:12 - 00:49:46:18
Sarah
Until next time, bye for now.